This is a dialogue I had on Stormfront, the white nationalist forum, with a man who uses the screen name Unconditioned Canuck. He started a thread by posting these links, from which followed the dialogue below:
Unconditioned Canuck: The nice thing about Integral Theory is that the ethnocentric stage is a recognized stage in one’s development!
Of course, you’re supposed to move on to a universal outlook ~ which, I hope we all do… but, ethnocentricism is certainly a vital stage in development towards greater consciousness. . . . You need to have your smaller mass of trusted community before you feel ready to diplomatically join the larger mass. After everything is said and done and you have “transcended” to the universal outlook stage, IMO, there’s nothing wrong with continuing to identify and associate with your ethnic community.
JosephRex: I feel this is an excellent perspective, and goes beyond Wilber in that he does not affirm ethnocentrism or, for that matter, any of the “earlier/lower” stages in his spectrum of consciousness. When I read his book Integral Spirituality I formed a critical perspective on many aspects of it, though acknowledging the positive value of the overall opus. Here’s a chart from this book:
Wilber’s point of view uncritically incorporates the modern Western concept of progress, and carries it to a postmodern extreme in that he believes he and his fellow illuministas have undergone a spiritual evolution beyond all traditional cultures, religions, and esoteric systems. Personally I feel that Hindu philosophy was and continues to be the most advanced and sophisticated metascience, compared to which Wilberism is a pipsqueak upstart. Yet he categorizes Hinduism as merely a “mythic” system, i.e. way down in the amber range of the spectrum.
Furthermore, Wilber’s system is clearly framed within the liberal Zeitgeist and perpetrates many of its parochial conditioned beliefs ~ precisely the kind of stuff that higher enlightenment is supposed to have outgrown. E.g., when you attain a POV that transcends all given cultures, regionalisms, etc., this does NOT imply a globalist metapolitical agenda, yet for Wilber & Co. it does ~ and they take it utterly for granted. In a more basic scale of development than that given on the chart, Wilber says that people develop from an egocentric to an ethnocentric to a “worldcentric” perspective ~ in which that last stage features a one-world one-family-of humanity belief-system. Not enlightened at all, IMHO, in that they have no self-awareness of it as such. I think your addendum that we should still appreciate and celebrate our particular ethnicity and preserve our smaller community is a crucial caveat.
Canuck: I have experienced some fantastic phenomena: thudding in walls, cracking lights, and various other phenomena, in synchronicity with my inner voice… “signs from Something” in other words.
An atheist throughout my life, I finally had to conclude there was Something invisible that can seemingly read my mind, and manipulate the environment around me as though it were a hologram. It helped me whenever I was completely alone and on the brink, whatever It is.
The main question I want answered now is: what is It, really? Why isn’t there scientific evidence for It yet?
JosephRex: Because material science operates wholly within the orange and lower bands of Wilber’s chart in my above post, whereas IT and the related phenomona (actually numena) you describe are all in the higher reaches of the spectrum.
Canuck [He passed over my preceding remark and reiterated:] My beef with all these psychologist/philosopher/spiritualist writers, and for that matter, every religious person, is that while they mention the realm of the spiritual and might use the word God, there’s no evidence for any of It. Thus what they write and say, be it the Bible, or Eckhart Tolle who mentions God, becomes complete jibberish. This is the issue today.
The only thing that will convince someone there’s Something there is EVIDENCE from the Something. And that is a path one must take alone.
JosephRex: In which band of the spectrum would you prefer your evidence? ORANGE: modern material science willfully limits its paradigm to the physical universe as perceived by the senses. Spiritually enlightened scientists know that this is an arbitrary choice which excludes vast tracts of reality. Unfortunately the majority of people who are imprinted from birth with this paradigm don’t know this, so they become atheists. “Scientific evidence” in this paradigm is limited to the physical portion of reality, and excludes by definition anything in the other portions ~ like that ‘Something’ you’re talking about. So if this is the kind of evidence you’re hoping for, I predict it will be a long time coming.
GREEN: This is the first layer of reality beyond the newtonian-dualistic hard-matter paradigm, where finer senses develop and humans begin to perceive the deeper portions of reality and the subtle processes beyond cause and effect. I suspect this is the layer you tapped into when you began to have certain experiences:
[I quoted Canuck‘s earlier statement:] thudding in walls, cracking lights, and various other phenomena, in synchronicity with my inner voice… “signs from Something” in other words.
JosephRex: This is green-band evidence, IMHO. If so, then what you may actually be looking for now is evidence in the higher bands, symbolized on the chart by the colors teal, turquoise, etc. But if you’re so adamantly convinced in advance that no such evidence exists, then you’ll be guaranteed to not see it when it turns up. Upper-spectrum evidence is very different from orange-science evidence, but just as conclusive in its own field, in fact even more so. It can certainly be found by following the path alone, as you say, and I wish you well on it. But individuals who have found this evidence are able to communicate about it between and among themselves ~ subjective evidence becomes intersubjective, and begins to operate in a manner more consistent and real than objective evidence, which is merely physical. Such communication about these realities will tend to sound like gibberish to people who are not tuned into the bandwidth. The choice is to turn it off with preconceptions and denial, or to keep an open mind and maybe experiment by turning the dial a bit now and then. You mentioned that you have never meditated, but this is the bottom-line basic method for tuning into those higher bands. There are lots of other ways too.
From here the conversation tailed off into other areas, but I feel that the above makes some vital points relevant to further discourse.